In the job that is supposedly my primary occupation, I'm a graduate student in history. Or, on days when I'm feeling confident in my work, I'm a historian. In either case, sometimes I end up teaching history to college undergraduates. I've had the privilege and the pleasure of working with very good professors, people who are genuinely interested in getting the students to engage with the material and to take something meaningful from it. One of the underlying premises of the teaching is that people have good reasons for doing the things they do; it's a theme I come back to again and again in discussion sections, asking the students to try and understand why certain actions or beliefs made sense at the time.
Most of the teaching I've done has been in the history of science, where this is a particularly difficult task. It's easy to say that the ancient Greeks were stupid for thinking that the stars were mounted in celestial spheres, or to say that Descartes was stupid for thinking the soul was a substance located in the pineal gland, or to say that the Catholic Church was stupid for not believing Galileo. It's easy, but it's pointless and it doesn't teach you anything interesting. What's much harder and much more meaningful is understanding why the Greeks and Descartes and the Church officials had good reason to believe they were right.
I say this is particularly difficult in the history of science classes, but it's not like it's easy in the other history classes. You don't learn anything from saying that the Supreme Court justices who decided Dred Scott or Plessy v Ferguson were stupid and racist. The more important lesson is understanding why the best and brightest legal minds of their times were convinced that those decisions were right. Your baseline assumption always has to be that people do things because they believe the things they are doing are correct.
One consequence with looking at things this way, of course, is that you start to disengage from agreeing or disagreeing. I disagree absolutely and on basic principle with the people who were opposed to women's suffrage, but that doesn't excuse me from having to understand why they thought letting women vote would damage the basic order of society.
Another consequence, at least for me, has been that this baseline assumption follows me out of history and in to the present day. When government officials take actions that look stupid or malicious, my feeling that they're stupid and wrong has to run in parallel with my attempt to understand why it makes sense to them, and why they think they're doing the right thing. It's at best an uneasy and uncomfortable place to be, inside my head.
Posted by Susan at June 30, 2004 03:23 PMThat reminds me of how I feel when arguing politics with my mother. Despite my frustrations I realize these arguments are valuable reminders to me: one of the most time-honored traps of human nature is to stop considering (at some level) the equal humanity of those who do not share the same ways of thinking. Of course I know she's a whole person! She's my mother, and I love her! Yet she thinks (feels) this and that and the other thing.
I wish more people were more comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Posted by: carrie at July 1, 2004 03:55 PMUneasy and uncomfortable, yah, but also imo vitally important imo. (Which is to say, good entry.)
Further thoughts, elaborating a bit on what you wrote: Almost nobody is a villain in their own mind. If you (generic you) start with the assumption that person X is doing action Y because they're stupid, incompetent, and/or evil, then I suspect chances are good that your mental model of reality will become less and less accurate over time. Understanding why someone's doing something is a good first step toward (a) guessing what they might do in the future, (b) having some empathy for them, and/or (c) figuring out ways that your disagreement with them can be productive (whether that means working out a compromise with them or figuring out how to circumvent or defeat them -- or, for that matter, even deciding that they're right after all).
I kinda think a similar approach is useful when workshopping fiction (also when analyzing published fiction for a class): start by figuring out what it was the author was trying to do, and possibly why, rather than by assuming the author is incompetent or dumb.
...Though actually that last point brings up another side thought, which is that someone's actions that seem stupid or evil might actually have been mistakes; the person probably had good intentions, for some definition of "good," but may not have succeeded in whatever it was they were trying to do. I think there's often a tendency among us leftists to assume that everything The Evil Conservatives do is part of an all-encompassing conspiracy; and it's comforting to believe in such conspiracies, because it's easier than believing in chaos and confusion and mistakes and people having complex and self-contradictory motivations.
I think this all obliquely ties in with Jon Carroll's column today, which is at the URL http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/02/DDGST6N23Q1.DTL (and btw, I still wish your comments system here handled URLs better): "we don't really know any of [the famous people that we think we know]. Even if we have met them, we don't know them. If we have an un-nuanced opinion of them, then we certainly don't know them, because no human personality is without shadings and shadows. Heck, we don't even know ourselves all that well, and we've been living inside our own skins our whole lives."
Posted by: Jed at July 2, 2004 02:58 PMBravo to this post.
Perhaps one of the most important uses of fiction -- particularly fiction set "far away", like historical fiction and SF -- is to create empathy with positions and stances alien to us. At least that's one of my favorite uses of it.
I have a similar experience to carrie's: my dad is one of the most intelligent people I know, a contrarian, an iconoclast, who has fought for what he believes in his whole life, and many of his political opinions are totally antithetical to mine. (I set up a blog for him at http://www.davidrosenbaum.com/blog, so you can see them).
It is easy to caricaturize the opponent, and produces nothing but confusion and lack of dialogue.
If we listen to each other, politics becomes a non-zero-sum game. Ideology as fixed construct is the enemy of that. It is the job of fixed political ideologies and the organizations that embody them to turn politics into a zero-sum-game.
Posted by: Benjamin Rosenbaum at July 2, 2004 05:10 PMOops, comma in the above URL:
http://www.davidrosenbaum.com
Jed's comment reminds me of the saying "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence," which is something I always try to keep in mind. There comes a point, though, when bad intentions are the simpler explanation.
I'm a big fan of trying to understand different points of view. When it comes to contemporary politics, though, I sometimes wonder whether it's the most useful approach. If you're dealing with someone who is sincere and potentially open to compromise, great. But too often, it seems, you run into people who aren't. And then what?
Suppose we believe that the Bush administration honestly believed Iraq supported al Qaeda and was building WMDs. Does that give us a better idea of how to defeat Bush in the upcoming election, compared with if we believe the administration lied?
Well, if we're talking =counterfactuals= . . . let's say we knew (1) that they =did= honestly believe, etc., etc.; and (2) that if the American electorate knew this, that would be enough to keep Bush in office. Say further that we had the power to reveal this to the American electorate, or to hide it and allow the electorate to believe that they made the whole thing up, thus getting Bush out of office.
Do we reveal the truth or hide it?
(Show your work.)
Posted by: David Moles at July 9, 2004 10:59 AMOr, to put it another way:
Suppose that our goal is to persuade people to vote for Kerry instead of Bush. Consider the following two categories of people we want to persuade:
-- Those who believe that Iraq was indeed engaged in such-and-such.
-- Those who believe that Iraq wasn't, but that Bush had good reason to believe that it was.
It's likely that telling those people that Bush is evil or stupid isn't a productive strategy. So what would be more productive?
It's reasonable to say that, by understanding why people believe these things, we could better formulate an argument that might persuade them to vote for Kerry instead. That may -- or may not -- require understanding why the Bush administration acted as it did.
Posted by: Ted at July 9, 2004 06:13 PMElections, of course, are the zero-sum part. So if you are going to restrict your definition of "politically useful" to "defeating Bush in the next election", then no, you needn't necessarily worry about understanding the point of view of the people *most* opposed to you.
However, you should try and understand the point of view of those people in the other camp that might be open to persuasion. If you can put yourselves in the mindset of thinking Republicans, for instance, you might consider which of your contentions strike them as reasonable, and which as base canards.
I am not anywhere near being a swing voter (I would vote for Forrest Gump over G. W. Bush) but I have a strong feeling that, for instance, the following memes that liberals hotly insist on are countrproductive in wooing swing voters (and here's why):
"Bush skipped his National Guard service"
a) the whole conservative narrative about Bush admits he *wasn't* responsible in his youth, he was an alcoholic, but then he found God and changed -- so picking on him for the sins of his youth is mean-spirited and beside the point, and
b) would you really, honestly, not pull a few strings yourself to get out of some boring, repetitive guard duty in Alabama to work on a Senate campaign you believed in?
"Cheney secretly controls Bush, Bush is a puppet"
The thing is, I know what a crock of shit I found the whole "Hillary is really controlling Bill" conservative meme and what idiots the people propagating it looked like -- and it's the same tactic precisely. A president is allowed to listen to advice from whoever they want, their spouse and their vice president being obvious examples, and you just look like a moron for carping about it unless your listener *already* believes that the spouse or vice president is Satan.
Those are two examples of how, even in the zero-sum situation of winning an election, taking seriously the worldview of the other side might be tactically useful.
But what I was really talking about is the non-zero-sum part of politics, which is actually the most important part; the part between the elections. What should we actually DO in Iraq? What should we actually DO about the budget? In my own work life and personal life, I find that when I confront people who have very different ideologies and starting positions than I do and I'm forced to find creative compromise with them in order to come to a consensus, the creative compromise is usually a *much better* solution than either of the starting positions. Why should this be different in national politics?
Of course, you can't run a country on consensus, there will always be (and should always be) people who disagree, and groups should advocate for their own radical proposals and so on; but the business of actually governing should be about creating clever solutions that satisfy most people, even ideological foes.
Some historical examples: Teddy Roosevelt's progressivism and trust-busting. The balanced budget revolution of the early 90s, catalyzed by the absurd but in hindsight extremely useful Ross Perot. Clinton and Gore's reform of government, which shrank the actual size of the federal government significantly for the first time in forever. And I can think of lots of examples in Swiss politics, such as the recent legalization of heroin-by-prescription.
By the accounts I hear from California (those there may have a different perspective) Schwarzenegger is governing as this kind of creative centrist, to the delight of the Democrats who have to work with him.
One reason a Kerry/McCain ticket, though it would never happen, was such an interesting idea, is the promise it held out of this kind of workable government (and the contrast therefore with the current gang of reckless, vitriolic ideologues)
Posted by: Benjamin Rosenbaum at July 12, 2004 10:15 AMYes, as I said, understanding how Bush supporters think may help you formulate a more persuasive argument. However, I think the examples you offer, Ben, aren't actually examples of you trying to understand an opponent's point of view; they're examples of where your personal position differs from that of certain other Bush opponents, which is a different thing.
As for questions like "What should we actually do in Iraq?", I'm not sure how *my* trying to understand Bush's point of view will affect U.S. policy. Policy changes might result if Congressional Democrats and Republicans tried to understand each other's points of view, but I don't know if a phone call from me is going to change my senator's approach.
There is the theory that, if we as individuals try to understand the POVs of people of differing political orientations, then eventually the increased open-mindedness will percolate upwards to our elected officials. My faith in this theory varies.
Posted by: Ted at July 13, 2004 02:14 AM
At least with the draft-dodging example, I am emotionally swayed by the liberal rhetoric of "how ironic that he couldn't be bothered to fight, yet starts wars" and not particularly convinced by the "Bush is born again and that makes all failings of his beforehand irrelevant" line. It's a conscious exercise of putting myself in moderate Bush supporter's shoes that makes me realize that these aren't compelling arguments to get them to switch over (unlike, say, the business of trampling on the Bill of Rights, or the ballooning deficit).
If you call your senator or congressman, the subtleties of your arguments may not have much effect, but they will definitely tally how many constituents feel strongly about what, and that will affect their stance. I know this from people who have worked as aides on the Hill. It works a lot better, of course, on non-center-stage issues. If you feel passionately about asparagus regulation, your single voice will have much more effect than it will about Iraq. A phone call just from you will not change their approach about Iraq, but enough phone calls, in combination with polls and other data, might.
I am a big believer in your percolation theory. It is not like it's a gradual, linear process, like a slider-control of open-mindedness going up. Open-mindedness is not very well defined or measurable. But it is clear to me that what we say and do in the small matters. It matters nonlinearly -- sometimes it may not matter very much. Sometimes, though, we are commenting on the right blog at the right time.
Certainly, the typical immediate effect of listening with care and tolerance is to produce that same emotional tenor in your interlocutors -- particularly your opponents. Both the attitude of collaboration and the attitude of violent antagonism are contagious -- they can spread like yawning. We are herd animals, after all.
But there is yet another reason to cultivate the attitude of listening carefully and empathetically to your opponents, even were it to have no immediate effect at all, which is that you think better. If you surround yourself with those in agreement with you, and listen to your opponents with disdain and purely strategic calculation about how to defeat them, you end up in an intellectual cul-de-sac; you starve yourself of resources for thinking about the problem anew.
This doesn't mean I think one shouldn't speak strongly against opinions and actions one regards as producing evil effects. Just that it is intellectually lazy and counterproductive to allow yourself to write off their authors as sufficiently stupid, misled, malicious, etc. as to not be worthy of consideration. Of course maybe they are stupid, misled, or malicious. But deciding that they are so in all relevant regards is the end of thinking about the matter.
Getting Bush out of office and catching Osama bin Laden are temporary, stopgap measures, as long as half the country believes in what Bush believes, and half the world sympathizes with Osama. The real answers to the problems they pose can only be found by listening to them, understanding what they and those who revere them are angry and afraid about and are attempting to achieve, and finding actual answers to the questions they are asking. (How America be kept safe? How can we return to a virtuous world? How can the honor and glory of Islam be restored?) Actually listening to them necessitates the attitude that there may in fact be things you are wrong about and they are right about.
Dominating and shutting up your enemy is not a long-term solution, though it is sometimes a tactical necessity.
They got it right in "Spirited Away": killing a monster is a partial victory. Making the monster into your friend (and a good citizen) is a full victory.
Posted by: Benjamin Rosenbaum at July 15, 2004 10:41 AM[Ben says: I am emotionally swayed by the liberal rhetoric of "how ironic that he couldn't be bothered to fight, yet starts wars" and not particularly convinced by the "Bush is born again and that makes all failings of his beforehand irrelevant" line. It's a conscious exercise of putting myself in moderate Bush supporter's shoes that makes me realize that these aren't compelling arguments to get them to switch over]
I don't follow this. You are swayed by a liberal argument, and not convinced by a conservative argument. How is this putting you in the shoes of a Bush supporter? It seems to me that a Bush supporter might believe the second argument, and consequently find that the first argument doesn't carry weight.
[Ben says: Certainly, the typical immediate effect of listening with care and tolerance is to produce that same emotional tenor in your interlocutors -- particularly your opponents.]
Your experience apparently differs from mine, at least when it comes to discussions of practical (as opposed to theoretical) matters.
Posted by: Ted at July 15, 2004 01:33 PMGeez, now I'm beginning to get confused myself.
Here's how I read the above:
Ben: Put yourself in the shoes of a Bush supporter: talking about Bush being AWOL in the 70s seems irrelevant.
Ted: That isn't putting yourself in their shoes. You just don't think it's a big deal he went AWOL.
Ben: No, *I* do think it's a big deal. But *they* think his being Born Again means it's not a big deal. So it's not a useful meme.
Ted: How is your thinking it's a big deal putting yourself in their shoes?
...I feel a little bit like I'm in "Who's On First?". :-)
Now watch me do the Mr. Rogers shoe switch.
My shoes on: liberal argument convincing, born again argument not convincing.
Their shoes on: liberal argument irrelevant and annoying.
This being the case, no matter how much emotional "rrr! take that!" satisfaction I might derive from seeing yet another headline about young Bush's AWOL days, rational analysis leads me to conclude it will only alienate swing voters, and thus is counterproductive.
On the second point: really? I'm not claiming that reasonableness is absolutely contagious. Obviously, sometimes people are going to be stubborn and unreasonable regardless of what you do. I am also not talking about humoring people or a veneer of polite civil discourse, while actually thinking they're goobers. I am saying, however, that being actually reasonable, and honestly listening for the good in what people are saying, and actively conceding those points you come to agree with, *tends* to cause them to be *more* reasonable in return.
In your experience, is there *zero* effect? Is whether you are being reasonable and charitable, as opposed to antagonistic and polemical, *irrelevant* to how your interlocutor acts? I find that mind-boggling, frankly.
Posted by: Benjamin Rosenbaum at July 16, 2004 10:44 AMOkay, I understand you now. I misinterpreted your previous posts.
As to the second point: I wouldn't say there is *zero* effect. In my work experience, trying to be reasonable means either you get ignored, or you wind up with a watery compromise that no one really likes. Trying to be antagonistic means you are seen as an opponent; you fight, and maybe you win, maybe you lose. (The bigger asshole usually wins.) I cannot think of a situation where I've seen compromise produce a better solution.
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